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Core Prinicples and their refinement..

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DrZebra

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Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by DrZebra on Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:18 am

in order to have easy accessible fun, I´d like to discuss, what is your take on the shape and workings of a joint coop-focused onlinemission suitable for non-expert players that even is televisable ;=)

I´d break that up into different parts:


A)Overhead: Squadron / Pilots / Storytelling

baseidea: having dieable pilots with profiles to keep survival oriented gameplay fun and allow for some context or stories
status: So far we have rooster. No squadron-hen yet.

B) organisational needs
like when to fly, how to join up and generally meet.
status: we have so far UTC and forum with chatbox to put up requests for people to fly with. If someone plans on recording a MP-episode, calling it out in advance would probably the easiest method. As well simply login on and stating in the chatbox that you´re on an willing to jump in if the opportunity presents itself. Any more ideas?

C) Preflight Coms:
make clear, either here or in sidechat: Which server (low-people with ai works pretty good for this formate)
Who is leading, Who is flying with who?
goal/target?
route and altitude?
maybe expectations of what to do when meeting the enemy?

D) Inflight Coms
if no, or partial voice coms only are used, having some pre-agreed signals and less chat chatter is absolutly desireable and works surprisingly well, only be carful with flares, when other opposing players are present.

ideas so far:

So how to attract attention, find each other (once lost) and call out enemies?

more inconspicous ways:
flying close rocking the wings or firing a short burst of machine gun (NOT at the other, obviously, next to each other): general call of attention (actually historically used like that, wing-waggles are still in use as "greeting" signal).
Use when enemies or contacts are spotted. Or for navigational corrections...
with the arm signals there could be more precise details th given (crt+2 and crt+3 give directional swiggles) like which direction to look.

flares are great, but with other players on the server they attract attention (and a lot of that) so the hotter the area, the less a flare is advisable. They are great though for finding together again when lost.. and somewhat safer the deeper in own territory.

how about the following:

single red: HELP (fired by anyone whatever reason, upon seeing that head there. careful, might be somebody else using red, too maybe red-white would be unique enough to see it is our flight..)

one red, one yellow: regroup (fired by the leader to indicate his position to lost members)
or: follow me in (like in a joint balloon attack)

single green: "ruuuun" (by anyone. meaning a superior enemy has sneaked upon us..)

green and white: "I need to abandon misson, heading home" (by anyone, indivdual plane breaks off)

red gold and green: Bob Marleys Birthday or general reason to celebrate
-> beeing more precise on how to call out sightings and enemies would be good!

E) tactical needs
dicta boelke is a good read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke

having less experienced players take the lead and more experienced ones fly wingman/cover (like in the historic missions when new pilots were introduced to the western front) has benefits but also disadvantages: Benefit: sneaking up gets harder for the enemy, and flying close, firing guns to call out enemy presence or danger gets easier from a wingmans perspective. Also, the less experienced pilot has not to concentrate on keeping formation, allowing to learn to search the sky for enemies, concentrate on flying and navigation.

disadvantages: engagement decissions and pre-engagement positioning is done by the less experienced fighter.

also note: when attacking several enemies: not latching on to a single one, but keeping an eye on the situation by attacking always the highest (or most energy possesing) fighter and trying to stay above rather then getting sucked down by tailing a single ai plane is an essential tactic.


anything else?
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Dukely
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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by Dukely on Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:59 am

Great! Do you think maybe we should move the communications and flare system to the Training section?


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DrZebra

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by DrZebra on Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:52 am

I think after a while of testing and discussing, we probably need to write it down short and simplyfied...

I just had two more thoughts:

1) one part of the above tactics should be collision avoidance. Since I failed so miserably at that and looking at it, I was entirly at fault..

genererally, squeezing in shots head on as well as head ons are things that are best to avoid, as well as the collision that "lenniesCopilot" had with the fe2. When in a favourable position, it is best not to get real close to multiseaters... unless you only have the last pass because your engine is about to fail or so.

2) flight organisation / squadron name:
when just hopping onto the server, with the player names it is all piece of cake to see and realize who is on the server, if we´d use "roleplay pilotnames" then that is not so clear (as everyone needs to realize who is who or on our side) but a squadron prefix (like SYN for syndicate or WW for Wingwalkrs) could actually fix that easy. So maybe DD_pilotname (dukley ducks, still like that name) or so might be a way.


Also: I´d like if others could share their thoughts/expectations/hopes/ideas on how to make it all both easy and yet non-standard fun. ;=)
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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by Dukely on Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:27 am

DD for recognition is a good idea. I agree maybe we could do a write up on tactics for the training section. Though I think the reason lenniesCopilot crashed was because the Fe2 was invisible.


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DrZebra

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by DrZebra on Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:38 am

na, it wasn´t invisible to him, only to me.. I saw it pop up, once he started shooting it. But it happens... nonetheless it is good to remind one how to avoid that.

I´m making new pilot with the DD tag just to see how it works.

And watching your vid, I noticed, calling out confirmed enemies and contacts needs to be distinguished and clarified. I´d say firing ones guns is a good was to call out "definatly enemies there" even though the tracers have chance of giving us away, optically and a triple wingwaggle could be contacts.. what do you guys think?
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Dukely
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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by Dukely on Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:48 am

I think firing guns is a good signal. Since people might not always be looking at other planes in the squadron wing waggles may go unnoticed.


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SeaLord
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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by SeaLord on Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:50 pm


By the way, Oswald Boelcke died as a result of a mid-air collision and resulting crash landing (and failure to strap-in properly), so it happens to the best of them.

If we are going to be playing against human opponents, the use of flares should be probably be kept to a minimum or there is no way we will be able to maintain the element of surprise. Good formation flying, with the leader bringing the flight to attack position (if we can avoid from being attacked first) is probably the best way to maintain surprise. I think the wing waggle was usually the signal when a bogey was sighted. I will have to read up on the tactics and communication strategies. flares may be good after a successful attack as a way to order the flight to reform for the flight home, or another attack. With that said, I am still open to using flares, as long as we have a common understanding of what the signals are and when they should (and should not) be used.

If I am not mistaken, the Germans tended not to stray too far into allied territory. The prevailing winds being west to east tended to carry a dogfight into German controlled territory or deeper into German territory. But, I am not sure if the winds are simulated in Rise of Flight. Another advantage for the Germans is that with the Sun rising in the east, the traditional dawn patrol was a real crap shoot for the French and British pilots. The phase "Beware of the Hun in the Sun" was a real danger. If we can spot the enemy first and attack from out of the Sun (which should be a little easier for the Germans during morning flights), we should be able to at least damage some aircraft in the first pass so they can be picked off later.

As for formation flying, the "finger four" is probably the most flexible formation tactically. But, it was not systematically used until World War II (first by the Germans). Although I don't recommend this, the Germans occasionally would send a pair of aircraft to a lower altitude hoping the planes would draw an attack and then they would send the remainder of the squadron down on the attackers. Personally, I would not want to be one of the low aircraft, or even ask someone to do that. It may be a good tactic for escorting observation planes though.

I definitely agree that Boelcke distilled the basic tactical principles down to their essence, so we can't go wrong by starting there.

P.S. Can you tell I can't wait to try out Rise of Flight?
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DrZebra

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by DrZebra on Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:18 am

after the last sortie, we probably should review the way we communicate. The visibility of the flares is really overly far modeled in the game and if too many people are on, you need to change location fast and less predictable after firing flares or you will get swarmed.  Still, I like the single red flare into the direction of the attacked subject, while we are in the numerical superiority, as apparently we are not too well in the sense that everybody sees what there is to be attacked.

Our overall situational awareness as a formation with historic non-radio needs a bit improvment.. but that will come with experience... Important is that everybody also looks around and behind, do not just concentrate on the leader.. If ìm in that role, I will make non-engaged formation-course changes slow but distinct, so that you have a chance to catch up, even if you were looking aft that very moment. And use zoom occasionally. It all gets easier over the own lines, where flak clearly indicate the presence of the enemy in most cases (but not if there is no flak in that zone! do not assume the lack with automatic friendlieness!) the inverse goes over enemy lines: flak=friendly no flak=enemy
In the last episode, for instance, I think dukley fails to associate the lone flare with the enemy (absence of flak over a heavy flak area while I am in front... see: 38:30 for my rtb signal indicating I´m ahed and heading over on our side.. then
at 41:13 you can see a green flare.. with no flak. that was richards responding to dukleys flare earlier.. and he was the enemy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DdIneyBzvw&feature=player_detailpage#t=2474


the wing waggle with changing heading to indicate contacts worked quite well, I think, the other use of wingwaggle, as a sign to call attention, when I wanted to point out that I wanted something (like change of course, ie: following me..) did not always work well. With our flight distances in the formation, the hand signals where mostly useless... as nobody really saw them...
firing guns to call out clearly identified enemies allso worked ok, I´d say.

with heavy aaa in our flight zone we need to fly lower, I saw that in the dukleys vid.. basically really low to exit the zone (read below treetop hight) is safest, but climbing once out of the aaa zone is essential to re-establish fighting potential. Overall I prefer to avoid those low-mud chases if possible, the train attack really was an exception because we needed drama..

I´m thinking that pre-agreed rally-points would be nice, as the green-yellow "form up" or "reassemble formation" signal once scattered exposes us to easy counterattack. (see dukleys last episode.. ) so giving that signal needs to be combined with a less intuitive course... to a rally point. (well nice theory.. but will it work?)

on collisions:
well, there were also other historical figures that died in collisions too, but overall you´ll see that in multiplayer you really need to take some effort to avoid collisions, otherwise it gets dull fast and way to frequent..  So avoid head-ons to the very last moment and resist the urge to squeeze in that last bullet is really good, sound advice.
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DrZebra

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by DrZebra on Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:40 am

so as is the following should be in effect:

wingwaggle: calling out contacts or general call to attention
firing guns: calling out enemy presence

single red: asking for an attack on what is in that direction. can be used as call for help when fired into direction of pursuing enemy craft (asking for an attack on that, too) is to be used sparsely.

green-yellow: reassemble flight/formation when scattered. Best given when a pre-defined rally points are know, leader will head there after giving signal. If damaged and not able to make rally point safely, rtb!

red-green: RTB!



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Dukely
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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by Dukely on Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:05 am

I like those communication ideas. I advise people to write them down and keep them close at hand when playing.


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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by Nefaro on Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:42 am

My biggest concern is maximizing our spotting potential.  

When we're in even a moderately spaced formation, it will suffer since we have to watch each other so much.   Sea Lord's suggestion of using the Finger Four (a loose approximation, anyway) would be ideal since we'd only have to watch one other aircraft.  

Keeping as loose as possible without getting separated would be nice.  I feel blind when I'm too close and having to constantly watch my wing, when I should be squinting out and under for enemies.  Real easy to get killed in multi-player if you're not doing that.
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SeaLord
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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by SeaLord on Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:08 pm

Here is the Wikipedia article on the finger four formation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger-four). In theory, the flight leader and the element leader have offensive roles while the flight leader's wingman and the element leader's wingman are supposed to protect the fight leader's and the element leader's tails, respectively. The flight element (element leader and his wingman) can break off to attack independently from the flight leader and his wingman (and hopefully be able to rejoin the flight leader and his wingman). Also, a leader (flight leader or element leader) can temporarily change roles with their wingman if the situation requires it (e.g., when the wingman is in a better position for attack on the target aircraft or if the leader is clearing a gun jam).

The pilots that are the wingmen will have less action in the supporting role, which may be a little boring, but we can switch around roles in different games.

Now, all this sound good in a message, but things tend to unravel pretty quickly in a dogfight, so things will probably turn into furball despite our best efforts.

"No plan survives contact with the enemy."
-- Helmuth von Moltke the Elder
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SeaLord
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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by SeaLord on Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:18 pm

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by Dukely on Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:40 am

Yes that is a great diagram. Can someone repost that over in the training section? Zebra has already started a really great post there with some formation flying included.


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SYN_LennysCopilot

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by SYN_LennysCopilot on Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:53 am

I saw your reference to me colliding with the Fee. That was embarassing.

I love your channel, btw, Zebra.

Are you guys flying on the SYN server on weeknights EST? Would love to join you cats if possible. Always looking to embarass myself online.
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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by Dukely on Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:19 am

Yes we are! Would be great to have you! We are going to be flying Saturdays at 20 UTC. 3pm for you and me, I'm EST too. If you look over some of the topics in our Multiplayer Project section you can make a pilot and join us today.


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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by SYN_LennysCopilot on Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:19 am

Okay! I might not be able to join you today, but I will definitely be joining you guys.

Do you do TS?
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Dukely
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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by Dukely on Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:22 am

We do not. Having no voice comms makes everything much more interesting Razz


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SYN_LennysCopilot

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by SYN_LennysCopilot on Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:18 am

I can dig it.
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DrZebra

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by DrZebra on Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:58 am

thanks.. and everyone that flies RoF has at one point or the other had a collision. But actually making an effort to have less (and survive more) makes the game more fun..

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by SYN_LennysCopilot on Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:56 am

I have had more than one collision, mos def. My signature move is to tear off my own wings. By accident, naturellement.
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dixieflyer

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by dixieflyer on Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:41 am

Dukely wrote:We do not. Having no voice comms makes everything much more interesting Razz

OK, first time posting here, and I've been waiting to join for a while now. However, I was under the impression, based on a prior post or conversation with Dr. Zebra a while back, that y'all did use TS while on the ground, just not once airborne. From the appearance of this post, you do not use it at all, period.

Am I tracking correctly on this?

Warren/dixieflyer
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DrZebra

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by DrZebra on Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:21 pm

yep, no teamspeak.

We´re not too strict, though, as fun and feasibility is always more important then fixed rules or at least so far we felt like it. So a few times we have exchanges plans via chat when we missed out on preparing the flight properly (you know, trying to cut the "drag" time of discussion before a flight because sometimes we all don´t have too much time at hand).. but generally the plan is to meet beforehand here in the chatbox (or in game side chat crt+enter) to cut a plan and then fly without comms but with each player tracking what happens (with vids or reports) so you can improve your partial picture of what went on and see where all the missunderstandings and planning faults and so where..

because thats quite fun and closer to how ww1 actually was, because the lack of complex information transmitting systems. But one should not underestimate the human ability to signal and plan.. just think of the naval battles in the age of sail, complex teamwork with a limited information exchange protocoll is quite old and some institutions had quite advanced takes on that...

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by dixieflyer on Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:05 pm

Thank you for clearing that up for me, evidently I misread one of your previous posts on the RoF forum.

Warren
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dixieflyer

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Re: Core Prinicples and their refinement..

Post by dixieflyer on Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:26 pm

Well, I got in the cockpit last night for the first time in about nine months. Ummmmm . . . ermmmmmm . . . I'm definitely in need of practice. Rolling Eyes

When I re-acquire a modicum of skill, I swing by and try to join up with y'all for some fun.

Warren

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