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Bombing Run..

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DrZebra

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Bombing Run..

Post by DrZebra on Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:19 pm

ok, that last one of todays vintage misson was close to how things should be...

the routing worked.. long climbing turn over the side where all targets where gone and defenders inland unlikely, evaded a bunch of guys on the way.. then the strong tailwind helped to actually get a fast and surprising run, catching one on the ground. Ace is blown away.

then another very experienced player spawns in, sees us and gives chase, while we attack the last, heavy defended target (3 ea in the vicinity). Luck has it, that another guy is just bombing in the same instant, but his hits need just ONE more. Which we promptly deliver and then make a run for it. We can evade everyone despite guys chasing, make it to base, win one last dogfight because Markov has the aim to get the last pfalz down and crashland in the last seconds on the base, all alive.

ok, I screwed up the landing, because I wanted to get down too quick, but still. thats how it looks if things go as planned.

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SeaLord
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by SeaLord on Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:51 pm

I have some video too for this mission, and for others.  I am working on the bomb assessment photos now.
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Dukely
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by Dukely on Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:19 pm

Gonna go through my footage tomorrow maybe cut together a highlight reel.

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SeaLord
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by SeaLord on Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:17 am

Here is my version of the bombing mission DrZebra shared in his post.  The sound is a little distorted in parts unfortunately.

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SeaLord
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by SeaLord on Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:35 am

On the early morning flight to assess flying conditions a Gotha G.V came to visit.

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DrZebra

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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by DrZebra on Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:17 am

nice that you got the last dogfight covered... because it pretty much shows how you don´t do it.

I mean, we could have cowardly landed instead of challenging the pfalz, but I had realized before that he wasn´t experienced and wanted to give you guys something to shoot at. And this plane is arguably the best under realistic conditions... up high, very high, that is. the lower you get, the more it gets into disadvantge. But it is a runner, speed is its virtue and trying to turnfight with an empty bomber (that thanks to the then low wingloading can turn more then you would first think) while facing movable guns is a reciepe for unnecessary trouble. If you don´t have the plane for it, resist the turning urge... especially against reargunners. he had all the alt and speed to position himself most favourable and could have blown us out of the skies with high chance, but threw it all away because he couldn´t thing of a way other then chasing tail.

notice how I unload the wings (pushing the stick forward, easing momentary wingloading) before turning over hard... to try to get the most maneuverability out of it and avoiding stalling low. learn that wing loading is variable to a degree and using that to an advantge in maneuvering hard-to-maneuver-brickish planes gives you a bit of an edge a lot of new players won´t necessarily expect.
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SeaLord
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by SeaLord on Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:26 am

I think I understand why unloading the wing helps before a hard maneuver, but I want to make sure.   I do not know how to express it exactly, but it seems unloading the wing provides the greatest amount of potential lift or range of lift going into the hard maneuver.  Essentially, the wing is producing zero lift, or close to zero lift, and as the incidence of the wing rotates through positive incidence relative to air flow, there is the greatest potential for production of a positive change in lift (lift delta) before separation of flow and the inception of turbulent flow on the upper surface of the airfoil (i.e., stall--a point you do not want to reach).  It would seem an unloaded wing would have the greatest potential moment (i.e., potential tendency to cause rotation about a point or axis) in pitch.  

Have you ever heard of a free program called JavaFoil?  I found it doing some research for radio-controlled modeling (which I just dream about and have never done).  I was doing some research into the flying wing designs of Reimar Horton (the Horton H.IX, or Ho 229, or Go 229).  Anyway, JavaFoil allows you to input airfoil cross-sectional data, but the interesting part is that there is a display that shows lift contours across the surface of the airfoil at different angles of incidence.  It is interesting to see how lift increases as the angle of incidence increases until lift becomes optimal at a certain positive incidence, and then lift decreases and separates from the wing (stall) as the incidence angle increases further.

Now, that I have written all that, I wonder if I will actually be able to put it into practice and keep myself from maneuvering with loaded wings.
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DrZebra

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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by DrZebra on Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:00 am

hahaha, I know which site you where on... I also have also had a fascination for flying wings and tailless designs, there is actually a horten glider beeing rebuilt.

and I would simply go with the simple explanation, that once you are tacking hard and close to a stall, unloading gives you more room to maneuver and the overall forces to deal with are lower (yes all that fancy delta..)
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SeaLord
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by SeaLord on Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:41 pm

DrZebra wrote:hahaha, I know which site you where on... I also have also had a fascination for flying wings and tailless designs, there is actually a horten glider beeing rebuilt.

and I would simply go with the simple explanation, that once you are tacking hard and close to a stall, unloading gives you more room to maneuver and the overall forces to deal with are lower (yes all that fancy delta..)

I went a little overboard on that post.

A Horton glider would be cool.
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SeaLord
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by SeaLord on Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:28 pm

Achtung Bristol!

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Dukely
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by Dukely on Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:31 am

The Bristol is so great! One of my favorites!

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SeaLord
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by SeaLord on Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:10 am

Dukely wrote:The Bristol is so great! One of my favorites!

Me too. It is really a fighter-bomber. I think the Bristol would really shine when employed in a group with good formation tactics. It should be able to hold its own against fighters.

By the way, I made a lot of errors in this flight. First, I always forget which way I should turn the knob on my flight stick and throttle to open/close the radiator (clockwise or counterclockwise). I closed it when I wanted to open it. As a result, I go into battle with an overheated engine. Second, I hit the wrong button on my controls and released all my bombs on the first pass. I just rearranged the rubble Tailmange created. Third, I should have been strafing more. Fourth, I should have targeted things Tailmange was not hitting. On the other hand, I wanted to stay close enough to Tailmange to have an idea of where he was and what he was doing. I wanted to stay close so that we could provide mutual support on the flight out when I was expecting that we would draw a fighter response. As it turned out, we seem to have both had our rear gunners killed (I think), and I did one too many strafing passes and loitered too long over the airfield. As a result, I got bounced at the end and Tailmange, who had just the slightest head start, escaped.
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DrZebra

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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by DrZebra on Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:07 am

I am kind of mixed on the brisfit, it is a cool plane, but in RoF it has a very flimsy damage model and also the flightmodel is decidedly odd, i sometimes enjoy it, but the lack of stall behaviour is something I have negative feelings about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=076aFZOL3zo in case you didn´t knew. But it is the only plane with a custom bombsight which makes altitude runs interesting. And after release you just go on a fighter sweep ;=)

A fun memory I have is that once I followed the railway lines, looking through the bombsight when I was jumped by fighters.. upon emergency jettisoning all bombs, I got the "train destroyed" message, accidental hit from 10k feet.

speaking of flightmodels, the pfalz III has actually benefited from the FM review, it is far less powerfull now, but feels a lot more like a real plane. Still somewhat beginnerfriendly as it is good natured and can soak up a lot of damage,
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SeaLord
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by SeaLord on Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:15 pm

DrZebra wrote:I am kind of mixed on the brisfit, it is a cool plane,  but in RoF it has a very flimsy damage model and also the flightmodel is decidedly odd, i sometimes enjoy it, but the lack of stall behaviour is something I have negative feelings about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=076aFZOL3zo in case you didn´t knew. But it is the only plane with a custom bombsight which makes altitude runs interesting. And after release you just go on a fighter sweep ;=)

A fun memory I have is that once I followed the railway lines, looking through the bombsight when I was jumped by fighters.. upon emergency jettisoning all bombs, I got the "train destroyed" message, accidental hit from 10k feet.

speaking of flightmodels, the pfalz III has actually benefited from the FM review, it is far less powerfull now, but feels a lot more like a real plane. Still somewhat beginnerfriendly as it is good natured and can soak up a lot of damage,  

The stall behavior is odd. You would think they would have taken the time to get it right for such a significant plane. I learned about the flimsy damage model at the end of the run with Tailmange.
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DrZebra

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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by DrZebra on Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:20 am

SeaLord wrote:

The stall behavior is odd.  You would think they would have taken the time to get it right for such a significant plane.  I learned about the flimsy damage model at the end of the run with Tailmange.

I can only say that the briquet-brick 14 can do what the brisfit can, only slightly worse, slighly less elegant but with a much higher chance of getting back.
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SeaLord
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by SeaLord on Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:59 am

DrZebra wrote:
SeaLord wrote:

The stall behavior is odd.  You would think they would have taken the time to get it right for such a significant plane.  I learned about the flimsy damage model at the end of the run with Tailmange.

I can only say that the briquet-brick 14 can do what the brisfit can, only slightly worse, slighly less elegant but with a much higher chance of getting back.

I have been flying the "briquette-brick" the last few days. I am starting to like it.
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Nefaro
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Re: Bombing Run..

Post by Nefaro on Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:50 am

SeaLord wrote:
DrZebra wrote:
SeaLord wrote:

The stall behavior is odd.  You would think they would have taken the time to get it right for such a significant plane.  I learned about the flimsy damage model at the end of the run with Tailmange.

I can only say that the briquet-brick 14 can do what the brisfit can, only slightly worse, slighly less elegant but with a much higher chance of getting back.

I have been flying the "briquette-brick" the last few days.  I am starting to like it.


It is a nice two-seater. With decent bomb load too!

I've flown ze German Halberstadt CL.II a number of times. Not as handy as a Brisfit and it doesn't carry as much in bomb weight. But it's fairly easy to fly. I couldn't get off the ground with a fully-loaded DFW the two or three times I tried thus far so that makes the CL.II look more attractive to me. Also... no friggin engine right in front of your face. German 2-seaters not as good as the later Entente ones.

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